I'm curious where the general consensus is at these days about the non licensed operators.
I've got an old co-worker who was talking about buying some baofeng HT's and his kids and their cousins playing and enjoying them. I remember doing this exact thing with CB radio when I was a kid but I'm not sure they're not using amateur radio gear unlicensed.
So, lets pretend for arguments sake they don't have Part 95 Personal Service Radios, but rather are mis using Part 97 gear that would call for a license in the US. Obviously it's wrong because of the license requirement but in a time and a place where there is no amateur activity, and they are operating as intended minus license are they causing any real trouble?
Before we had things like TEMU or Amazon there was a little gateway to entry of the seller asking for your license, (not that you couldn't make it up) I had another co-worker who got licensed but first looked up a Silent Key to get a radio. Now I don't think they ask at all before exchanging currency for the item.
In the very rural, very hilly part of Pennsylvania they are located as I said there's no interference. If they were 20 miles in any other direction I suspect they'd find trouble.
So, have we lost that fight to keep amateur radio from becoming CB? That was always the battle when I first got started and was among the early no-code licenses. The old timers all said, "this will end up as CB for taking down the challenges!" I went on to get my Tech + and then General and became an exclusively CW/digi operator. When I had radio interference issues in Schenectady NY with a freebander pirate radio station being picked up on my electronics (not even radios!) the FCC told me they'd only come and check it out if I could give them a likely address. This was Schenectady, it's a rough town, and I wasn't going to get stabbed to death over some interference. The FCC just had no teeth back in 2008.

So, what's this debate like now in 2024, is it still a thing? Are we still scared someone might enjoy, (not abuse) our bandwith without a license?

N2QFD

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I'm curious where the general consensus is at these days about the non licensed operators.

Listening to the ECARS 7.255Mhz net every morning, where most of the time you can hear burps, farts, and constant tuning up over the net. I have a strong feeling those who interrupt the net are fully licensed extras. I feel it doesn't matter if you have a license now or not. Even those of us who are licensed and spend time and money to put up a station can ruin a net just because they don't like it.

Uber-Geek - Sysop: The Phantom BBS (https://phantombbs.info)

... When all else fails, read the instructions

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Phantom BBS - bbs.phantombbs.info (21:1/161)

It has been a HUGE issue with the FRS/GMRS combining.
Years ago those channels were separate, but now they are all combined. If you have a license, then on certain channels you can use higher power. But it doesn't matter. Anyone can walk into Walmart and pick up a pair and just start using them. No big deal when the freqs were separated (even some radios refused to TX unless you unlocked it - aka telling it you had a GMRS license). So I paid the overly-priced license fee to get mine so I could start using repeaters. (even bought a used repeater for my own playing around and testing).
I had tested for my HAM decades ago and passed it, but that was when you also had to know 5 WPM Morse and I was being deployed to Korea, so I never went back to obtain the license.
I don't mind GMRS - which is just like CB now that FRS is combined. I just get very upset when I'm trying to make contact to my local repeater and (since the RX from the repeater is a GMRS channel), I can't get a return because some kid is on burping and hitting the CALL button over and over.
I had recorded that once and sent it to the FAA to "complain" about their decision and how I had to pay $75 for a license that I can't use.

It is still a (somewhat) fun field, and I have a few HAM rigs just for listening, and a few SDRs I play around with from time-to-time.

--
Timothy Norris aka SirRonmit
admin@f4fbbs.com
bbs.f4fbbs.com:2323 or :62323

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Files 4 Fun BBS (21:2/120)

Re: Re: No license operators
By: SirRonmit to n2qfd on Tue Mar 19 2024 15:16:04

It has been a HUGE issue with the FRS/GMRS combining.
Years ago those channels were separate, but now they are all combined. If
I don't mind GMRS - which is just like CB now that FRS is combined. I just get very upset when I'm trying to make contact to my local repeater and (since the RX from the repeater is a GMRS channel), I can't get a return

I was a dedicated GRS user in the 70's before the big trucker thang happened. We opened and closed all comms with our Canadian licenses. We only used 26.965 MHz to 27.405 MHz freqs as they still do. I wanted to get my HAM license here in Canada, but soon realized that I couldn't actually 'own' one legally, and probably couldn't afford the money for what I wanted to do without a license.

I discovered recently, groups on Facebook, full of people wanting to use CB's properly. They even have callsigns given to them by Charlie Tango in England. Mine is 9CT033. I've talked to some nice hams on-line but also a lot of miserable hams that made me lose interest. Skip is still king in CB.:-)


.
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote
centralontarioremote.net:23
==============================
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: Central Ontario Remote Synchro (21:1/159.5)

I discovered recently, groups on Facebook, full of people wanting to use CB's properly. They even have callsigns given to them by Charlie Tango
in England. Mine is 9CT033. I've talked to some nice hams on-line but
also a lot of miserable hams that made me lose interest. Skip is still king in CB.:-)

I've never heard of that, I'll have to look into it.
I still have my old mobile and base CB units here.
Man those were the days!!!

--
Timothy Norris aka SirRonmit
admin@f4fbbs.com
bbs.f4fbbs.com:2323 or :62323

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Files 4 Fun BBS (21:2/120)

Re: Re: No license operators
By: SirRonmit to Mickey on Wed Mar 20 2024 10:00:23

I've never heard of that, I'll have to look into it.
I still have my old mobile and base CB units here.
Man those were the days!!!

https://charlietangodxgroup/forumotion.com/

73



.
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote
centralontarioremote.net:23
==============================
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: Central Ontario Remote Synchro (21:1/159.5)

On 19 Mar 2024 at 05:21a, n2qfd pondered and said...

[snip]
So, what's this debate like now in 2024, is it still a thing? Are we still scared someone might enjoy, (not abuse) our bandwith without a license?

I'm an extra, been licensed for a decade, blah blah blah. I
only mention this because too many hams use their decades of
licensed status as some kind of cudgel with which to argue.

My take is that yes, this violates both the spirit and letter
of the regulations, but it's one of those things that is
mostly harmless.

Ham radio is, frankly and literally, dying. The average age
of hams is increasing, and the relevant advocacy organizations
are doing little (if anything) to increase youth participation.
And many of those who see themselves as the gatekeepers of
amateur radio are, frankly, very unpleasant to deal with both
on the air and off. Some others in this thread have mentioned
poor operator behavior on e.g. HF; inappropriate and rude stuff
coming over the air. So often, it's coming from fully licensed
operators who've been on the air for decades and who, bluntly,
have come to feel a sense of ownership over both spectrum and
the hobby as a whole and with it, a sense of entitlement to be
both rude and inappropriate on the air. Not everyone involved
in the hobby is like that, of course, but too many are and they
are often the loudest. These were the same people who claimed
that no-code hams would ruin the hobby, that the tests were
being watered down, that the hobby was ruined...and then turn
around and wonder why, "the bands are dead." Maybe because you
guys chased off everyone who was remotely interested?

So, if people behave like that, why would a young person be
motivated to study for and then _pay money_ to get licensed?
Just to be verbally abused by some jerk on the air? No, thank
you.

For people buying the Baofengs on Amazon and treating them
like souped-up walkie talkies, I can see why: you don't have
to put up with the asshatery, if you're even aware of the
licensing requirements in the first place. So if someone
buys a cheap HT and talks around the neighborhood, does it really
hurt anyone? Probably not. Are there hams who are going to
get seriously bent out of shape about it? Yes, absolutely. Do
I care about their opinions? Mostly no.

Same thing with HF, frankly. A lot of old-timers are complaining
that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the
Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and
the kids don't want to listen to some nasty old man talk about a)
how the kids are all screwed up these days, and b) how his prostate
is acting up again. Can't say I blame them.

(It's always funny to me how those complaining that no one is
upgrading don't seem to take the time to ask people if they even
_want_ to upgrade.)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

No Dope,

I'm an extra, been licensed for a decade, blah blah blah. I
only mention this because too many hams use their decades of
licensed status as some kind of cudgel with which to argue.

I love this, somehow I slipped into the QCWA qualifying range but for exactly the reasons mentioned I have no desire to be a part of that!

are often the loudest. These were the same people who claimed
that no-code hams would ruin the hobby, that the tests were
being watered down, that the hobby was ruined...and then turn
around and wonder why, "the bands are dead." Maybe because you
guys chased off everyone who was remotely interested?

Yep, early No-Code, that got boring quickly and I upgraded. The Repeater scene was very much like the CB at one point and I just needed more from this hobby.

So, if people behave like that, why would a young person be
motivated to study for and then _pay money_ to get licensed?
Just to be verbally abused by some jerk on the air? No, thank

My license test was $5... what's it up to now!

So, I haven't even bothered with the local club. It's not that I don't value the things like having some nice digipeaters around for almost no-one to use APRS on! It's the role crazed jerks. Yellow Vest+Radio doesn't make you an authority any more than years in. And with just as interesting of avenues outside the license I can play radio with my Android, My WiFi gear heck even getting back to BBS and deciding to start one here.

I'm a young ham in my mid 40's now and I've buried most of my friends. I sometimes check into a DMR net which is just VoIP with more steps. The conversation hasn't changes in 30 years and the experimenters and the innovators don't seem to be there saying "hey I'm trying this with my gear what do you think?"
Is is disappointing? Maybe a little, but things change. I'm working some fun digital modes we didn't have but even that seems like it's too much work for the many out there. >>Key up repeater|run down current times|willfully forget that what it was, wasn't always there either.<<

Someone once said to me that if you hold on the rope too tightly you will eventually get dragged.

C'est la vie,

N2QFD

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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Raspberry Pi/32)
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I've never heard of that, I'll have to look into it.
I still have my old mobile and base CB units here.
Man those were the days!!!

https://charlietangodxgroup/forumotion.com/

I joined - same user name -- thank you!

--
Timothy Norris aka SirRonmit
admin@f4fbbs.com
bbs.f4fbbs.com:2323 or :62323

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Files 4 Fun BBS (21:2/120)

So, if people behave like that, why would a young person be
motivated to study for and then _pay money_ to get licensed?
Just to be verbally abused by some jerk on the air? No, thank
you.

I don't know much about amature radio, but I was interested in it when I
had just finished high school. I got in contact with the local club and
went on an outing with them - we went to the local police station and
they showed off their radios, it was actually quiet fun.

Another one loaned me a receiver so I could listen, it was unable to
broadcast but I had fun with that and ended up returning it. I'm not
really the kind of person to talk on the air, but would love to listen in again..

Anyway, I guess I was really lucky with my local club, maybe because it's
a country(ish) town. I might have got a license, but I was terrible at
morse code and at that time it was a requirement.

I wonder if those guys are still alive.. probably not - they were quiet
elderly and that was 25-ish years ago.

I'm sure things are different now, and I guess it's a lot like BBSing...
surely there are nice people around but it's easy for them to get lost in
the noise.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.53-dev (FreeBSD/amd64)
* Origin: Smuggler's Cove - scove.talismanbbs.com:2323 (21:1/182)

I would tell you there are absolutely great amateur radio operators around and many of them are here actually doing the BBS thing.
We had BBS via radio (it was much less colorful for data speeds) and that's still out there too. I connected to a ham in Nova Scotia's BBS from my home in Elmira, NY via HF Packet so I was transmitting on 14.105Mhz BUT.. it's only 300 baud... So not as much to look at and it's the definition of whatever the opposite of snappy is!
I was lucky too, My dad is a ham (N2NRA) my cousin (KB2KFL) and they were great Elmers (mentors) as you had growing up lending us gear and encouraging us along the way. They hung out with others who were into the fun not so much the soapbox aspect of the hobby.
I can remember junior engineer that transfered to a position our town with Ingersoll-Rand where my father worked. I think the connection through radio made it easy to help Tom settle and his life more stable in the area as a young guy not to out of college. A memorable experiment: He had come from Illinois and a place where they had Touch Tone phones and we were still on pulse. His Voice mail would connect pulse but wouldn't unlock without TT so we hatched a scheme and I had an HT that did tones, so we dialed and I held the radio up to the phone and entered his pin and worked!
I was probably just 13, but it stuck. It was a sort of Can-Do that was there, and the ham that are making things less fun are part of the stuck in the past league of GeT oF My LaWn! type of old men who have have made an unhealthy nostalgia their everything.
They're still out there, there's a lot of the good people still out there doing. I was looking at my BBS welcome letter and I made it quite clear in the values. In fact I took them from the fsxNet use note.

- Have fun!
- Keep it simple
- Be kind, respectful and helpful
- Reject disruptive conduct that willfully incites discord

73
N2QFD//Mal

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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Queen City BBS (21:1/154)

Same thing with HF, frankly. A lot of old-timers are complaining
that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the
Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and
how the kids are all screwed up these days, and b) how his prostate
is acting up again. Can't say I blame them.

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few
years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an
unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to
the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication
were overwhelmed or not working.

HAM always interested me but I never got into it. My next-door neighbor
here was a HAM but has passed away.



--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * telnet:2123/ssh:2122/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

And many of those who see themselves as the gatekeepers of
amateur radio are, frankly, very unpleasant to deal with both
on the air and off. Some others in this thread have mentioned
poor operator behavior on e.g. HF; inappropriate and rude stuff
coming over the air. So often, it's coming from fully licensed
operators who've been on the air for decades and who, bluntly,
have come to feel a sense of ownership over both spectrum and
the hobby as a whole and with it, a sense of entitlement to be
both rude and inappropriate on the air. Not everyone involved
in the hobby is like that, of course, but too many are and they
are often the loudest. These were the same people who claimed
that no-code hams would ruin the hobby, that the tests were
being watered down, that the hobby was ruined...and then turn
around and wonder why, "the bands are dead." Maybe because you
guys chased off everyone who was remotely interested?

Some of what you have said above could also be said about (at least parts
of) Fidonet. The same folks who want to point out that "it is dying" are
often the ones that are rudest to new sysops.


--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * telnet:2123/ssh:2122/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

On 22 Mar 2024, Blue White said the following...

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

we had a tornado last year which for my area is mostly a once every many many years type of affair. one of the repeaters that is dead 99% of the time came alive .. was interesting to hear.

for a while almost all the information on the regular news was just information from them.. quite a bit different watching a radar on a screen vs having 40-some people checking in detailing exactly where the tornado is and which areas have trees down and building damage. plus they're a bit better than the people who call the radio stations like "OMG A TREE FELL AND I WAS SO SCARED" or whatever..

one of the guys was like "well, the tornado is pointed directly at my house, guess i have to leave" - i think he owned a trailer (no basement) - and it missed it by a little bit, but if it hadn't.. he wouldn't have known in any
reasonable amount of time without the radio.

i'm not one of those diluded "ham radio will save the world!" type of guys, but it's definitely more important than just a hobby .. sometimes :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

On 22 Mar 2024 at 09:13a, Blue White pondered and said...

Same thing with HF, frankly. A lot of old-timers are complaining
that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and
how the kids are all screwed up these days, and b) how his prostate
is acting up again. Can't say I blame them.

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

Yeah, hams like to say that, but _usually_ they overstate
what's actually going on. Most of the times, when hams are
working on a disaster, they're mostly doing health and
welfare traffic, which is important, but not as important
as they'd like to believe. Most of the time, served
organizations are better equipped than most hams.

Where hams _could_ have an outsized impact is in training
members of served organizations in how to use the gear that
they've already got. Organizations have a lot of good
equipment, but much less training in proper radio procedure,
and even less in how to use the equipment that they have
effectively.

Roughly speaking, Amateur Radio can be divided into three
categories: EmComm and emergency preparedness; contesting
and general operating (ye olde "ragchew" on the air); and building/engineering/tinkering. The first is almost always
the justification for the spectrum allocation, but is the
most precarious. The second gets a lot of attention in
ham-related media (the magazines, ARRL, etc). The third
is falling away, as the people who are inclined towards
that kind of thing aren't interested in the limitations of
the amateur service (no encryption) and hassles of other
hams acting like jerks. Can't say I blame 'em.

... Live every day as though it were your last. One day, you'll be right

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: No license operators
By: tenser to Blue White on Wed Mar 27 2024 06:54 am

most precarious. The second gets a lot of attention in
ham-related media (the magazines, ARRL, etc). The third
is falling away, as the people who are inclined towards
that kind of thing aren't interested in the limitations of
the amateur service (no encryption) and hassles of other
hams acting like jerks. Can't say I blame 'em.

Another thing is that UHF/VHF is [nearly/completely] dead in most
places, so there's nothing to get a beginner hooked without requiring
them to get yet another license and drop hundreds of dollars.

I know the cost of a decent isn't crazy compared to what expenses /could/ be,
but it's still reason enough to balk at getting more invested.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

I just want to pop into this thread because I feel like this is exactly where I'll find the people who can guide me. I am one of those people who recently had my interest piqued by the inexpensive radios from China. I bought a Quansheng, modded it, slapped a Nagoya antenna on it, but I am *new* to this. I have taken the utmost care to not operate without a license. I keep Tx turned off on the channels I'm not supposed to broadcast on, and I wouldn't dare try to transmit on the CB range since the SDR chip in this doesn't filter it properly and I took the time to understand how it can interfere on harmonic freqs without that. So I mostly just listen. But sometimes I want to join. They do trivia on the local EchoLink sometimes, and even though I'm a lot younger than the people participating, I am old enough to get all the 80's questions haha! I guess where I'm going with this is: as someone who actually cares about the etiquite of HAM and see how interesting it can be to just have convo and events with people from all over via the waves, what advice might one give me? Like in the sense of resources or whatnot. I'm currently trying to either get a new job or get into a gov't college program after being laid off last summer, so I've got some time before getting a license. But I want to. I've noticed that the people on EchoLink (I'm listening on 444.800mhz from the CN Tower) are all really chill people. I see talk of gatekeeping in this thread, but if I do get on the transmit and encounter that, I'd like to know what I'm talking about. I guess some people get these things and mod them and act all willy nilly with them, but I kind of like having this little alternate window to the world that I can carry around and want to approach it with tact.

*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]

---
* Origin: Dark Systems BBS -- Ontario CANADA -- bbs.dsbbs.ca:23 (21:1/148)

Hey that's all great stuff, this is exactly how I started into the hobby back in the early 90's
So I'm assuming you're in Canada? Mileage might vary here but in the US the FCC has ultimate say but the amateur radio system was set up so that amateurs who are registered as Volunteer Examiners (Vee-Eee's) administer the testing to get you licensed. That being said exams are usually arranged with clubs or at Ham Fests.
I'm old so we had a different license structure here starting with Novice, Tech, General, Advanced, Extra each license class came with perks such as operating privileges like getting to do voice on the world bands not just VHF or the sweet spots on the world bands like Extra's had the bottom of 40m and didn't have to deal with as much QRM (man made interference) and better access to the DX (long range) calling frequencies.
I was part of the early No-Code program that didn't require you to know morse code but restricted you to a special no-code Tech license and if we got our code endorsement (I passed 5 words a minute at a hamfest in Rochester, NY) you became Tech+ Boy I was excited that night. I was still living at home and I finally had the privileged to use my dad's FT-990 on 40M!
I used to study with the practice tests on www.qrz.com It's under the resources header on the main page.

The Amateur Radio Relay League is a good resource www.arrl.org

If you're in Canada, The Radio Amateurs of Canada www.rac.org

I'd see what you have for local ham radio clubs around too.

Try not to let old lids (bad operators) put you off, like with most hobbies it's what you put into it. A good attitude and honest outlook goes a long way. I'm always reminded, does this need to be said, does this need to be said by me, does this need to be said by me right now? Some times it's just better to Read the Mail (listing in on a net!)

Hope this is something to point you in the right direction.

best 73, es N2QFD AR SK..

--------------------------------
][ de N2QFD ][
][ Queen City BBS ][
][ queencitybbs.ddns.net:607 ][

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Queen City BBS (21:1/154)

Thank you! This is a good starting point, checking those links out.
I look forward to seeing where this goes!

---
* Origin: Dark Systems BBS -- Ontario CANADA -- bbs.dsbbs.ca:23 (21:1/148)