• Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe

    From Nightfox@21:1/137 to All on Wed Jun 10 14:34:43 2026
    For anyone here who plays guitar - Recently I heard some news about Fender that Fender has filed lawsuits in Europe against other manufacturers who make guitars similar to Fender's Stratocaster. The Stratocaster guitar shape is now public domain in the US, so Fender can't legally do anything about that in the US, but that's not the case in Europe, and it seems Fender wants to take legal action to prevent other guitar makers from selling Strat-like guitars in Europe.

    It seems like an odd move, as Fender is only doing this now..

    Nightfox
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Thu Jun 11 06:47:25 2026
    It seems like an odd move, as Fender is only doing this now..

    I think the problem is that someone made a slightly-better guitar, so now people are buying that, but it's clearly derivative.

    So they're losing their business, so they don't have much to lose by suing, probably.

    But I don't know. I read about it in context of the idea of a law to protect artistic styles. Which... seems like a bad idea, but I appreciate your attempt at making some _other_ discussions, and talking about laws is probably political at a time when we've had enough of that.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Thu Jun 11 07:45:27 2026
    Nightfox wrote to All <=-

    It seems like an odd move, as Fender is only doing this now..

    Yeah, I don't know the legal basis for it - copyright, if it is,
    typically has to be defended immediately. The horse has left the barn,
    so to speak on Stratocaster clones.



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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to Adept on Thu Jun 11 09:01:58 2026
    On Thursday, June 11th Adept was heard saying...
    I think the problem is that someone made a slightly-better guitar, so now people are buying that, but it's clearly derivative.

    I see them sort of like Harley Davidson -- great for the look and name, but there are much better options for a bike TBH.

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Thu Jun 11 11:48:32 2026
    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe
    By: Adept to Nightfox on Thu Jun 11 2026 06:47 am

    I think the problem is that someone made a slightly-better guitar, so now people are buying that, but it's clearly derivative.

    Not just someone, but I think there are multiple others that could be considered better than Fender.

    But I don't know. I read about it in context of the idea of a law to protect artistic styles. Which... seems like a bad idea, but I appreciate your attempt at making some _other_ discussions, and talking about laws is probably political at a time when we've had enough of that.

    The point wasn't to talk about laws, but rather the Fender company making arguably a dick move.

    Nightfox
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to NuSkooler on Thu Jun 11 16:10:32 2026
    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe
    By: NuSkooler to Adept on Thu Jun 11 2026 09:01 am

    I see them sort of like Harley Davidson -- great for the look and name, but there are much better options for a bike TBH.

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.
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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Jun 11 20:43:42 2026
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to NuSkooler <=-

    I see them sort of like Harley Davidson -- great for the look and name, but there are much better options for a bike TBH.

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American goods.
    What a concept.



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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to Gamgee on Thu Jun 11 20:45:26 2026
    On Thursday, June 11th Gamgee muttered...
    Maybe they wanted to support America.

    You mean like global trade of ideas and goods?


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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Fri Jun 12 08:42:51 2026
    Not just someone, but I think there are multiple others that could be considered better than Fender.

    If there are multiple others, probably even less danger to the Fender name, and greater money they could make.

    But I don't know. I read about it in context of the idea of a law to protect artistic styles. Which... seems like a bad idea, but I apprec your attempt at making some _other_ discussions, and talking about la probably political at a time when we've had enough of that.

    The point wasn't to talk about laws, but rather the Fender company making arguably a dick move.

    Oh, absolutely. I was talking about a related proposed law, that was related because I read about it in an article comparing it to the Fender case, and that things like the Fender case are why the law could be problematic.

    But, regardless of all that, Fender is definitely making a dick move, though the question is whether or not it's reasonable to do so.

    I think I'd be a lot more willing to consider Fender's position if these makers with newer models were building off of something less than 15 years old. But most of what made Fender models special appears to be decades old, at this point.

    That said, clearly other people here know way more about guitars than I do; I'm mostly interested in it because of the intersection with patent/copyright/etc., where I have way more knowledge than is likely reasonable.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 12 09:08:57 2026
    Yeah, I don't know the legal basis for it - copyright, if it is,
    typically has to be defended immediately. The horse has left the barn,
    so to speak on Stratocaster clones.

    I _think_ you mean patents, though I think these may be getting into some more nebulous concepts where it's not especially either.

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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to NuSkooler on Fri Jun 12 08:06:54 2026
    NuSkooler wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Maybe they wanted to support America.

    You mean like global trade of ideas and goods?

    No. I mean like Americans supporting America, by buying "local".

    Difficult concept for people like you, I know.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Gamgee on Fri Jun 12 07:54:08 2026
    Gamgee wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American goods.
    What a concept.

    Maybe, but they stated financial reasons.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Fri Jun 12 07:54:08 2026
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I _think_ you mean patents, though I think these may be getting into
    some more nebulous concepts where it's not especially either.

    I think you're right - I suppose I was thinking of implied consent - if
    you don't actively pursue remedies, that could hamper your ability to
    sue companies for patent infringement?

    I am most obviously not a lawyer.



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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 12 10:27:13 2026
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Gamgee wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American goods.
    What a concept.

    Maybe, but they stated financial reasons.

    Do you believe that city/local/state/federal agencies often make true statements as to the reasons they do anything, especially when it
    involves money/funding?



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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to Gamgee on Fri Jun 12 10:12:06 2026
    On Friday, June 12th Gamgee was heard saying...
    No. I mean like Americans supporting America, by buying "local".

    Cool, tell me about some of these American only products you use!

    Food: Welp, we need to grow it around the world if you want the food you probably eat on a daily basis.
    Electronics: Oops, we don't have the facilities nor the will of the people to work for such cheap labor. Unless you're down with a $10k phone.
    ...the list goes on forever...
    Vehicles: Oops, they need parts & resources from all over.

    I buy from local & farmers markets all the time. I'm not dumb enough to think we can move to a "American only" economy. We could go back to one. Better get ready to live like it's the depression though.


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Fri Jun 12 09:20:55 2026
    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe
    By: Adept to Nightfox on Fri Jun 12 2026 08:42 am

    do; I'm mostly interested in it because of the intersection with patent/copyright/etc.

    I've heard Fender's guitar headstock shape is patented (or copyrighted?) in the US, whereas their guitar body shapes are not. That's why you (generally) don't see any other guitar makers making guitars with the exact same headstock shape in the US, but plenty with Strat & Tele bodies.

    Nightfox
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  • From Dumas Walker@21:1/175 to NIGHTFOX on Fri Jun 12 13:09:02 2026
    I've heard Fender's guitar headstock shape is patented (or copyrighted?) in the
    US, whereas their guitar body shapes are not. That's why you (generally) don't
    see any other guitar makers making guitars with the exact same headstock shape >in the US, but plenty with Strat & Tele bodies.

    That is what I have also read, re: the headstock vs. the body shapes.

    I suspect, but am not sure, that part of this has to do with them changing ownership over the years. Mr. Fender left at some point and actually
    started another guitar company... I think he has since passed on?


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  • From Mike Powell@21:1/175.6 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 12 12:15:30 2026
    Gamgee wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went
    with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of
    their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American
    goods. What a concept.

    Maybe, but they stated financial reasons.



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  • From Mike Powell@21:1/175.6 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 12 12:18:18 2026
    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went
    with Harley when they realized the resale value at the end of
    their police life was higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American
    goods. What a concept.

    Maybe, but they stated financial reasons.

    Could those financial reasons, in addition to resale, also include
    maintenance costs? I don't know when that happened but I have a
    brother-in-law who steers relatives away from BMW vehicles because he
    says they are more difficult and costly to maintain. He and my
    sister drive Acuras and Mercedes, so it isn't a "hating foreign
    makes" thing.


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Dumas Walker on Fri Jun 12 16:06:47 2026
    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuit
    By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Fri Jun 12 2026 01:09 pm

    That is what I have also read, re: the headstock vs. the body shapes.

    I suspect, but am not sure, that part of this has to do with them changing ownership over the years. Mr. Fender left at some point and actually started another guitar company... I think he has since passed on?

    Yep; he passed away in 1991. He eventually went on to co-found G&L with Leo Fullerton. I think G&L made great guitars (I have one myself, which I bought in 2014). And unfortunately, G&L just recently went out of business several months ago (presumably due to low sales), and I saw that Fender acquired the rights to the G&L stuff. At G&L, Leo Fender continued his work (and innovation), where he made newer designs for guitar tremolos, pickups, etc., and I think they were strong products. They didn't seem to have the brand recognition like Fender & Gibson & others have though; their lack of marketing & advertising was probably a significant factor contributing to their closing. I don't remember where/how I heard about G&L; I read about them online somewhere and after doing some research, I decided to make a custom order for one of their US-made Comanche guitars in 2014.

    I think one of the cool things about G&L was that you could get a guitar made to order with your preferred choices for options they had for things like guitar color, tuners (traditional or locking, etc.), pickguard color, etc., and they cost about the same as a regular US-made Fender (whereas a custom-made Fender would be from Fender Custom Shop and about double the price). G&L did raise their prices in their last few years though.

    Several years ago, I bought a used G&L ASAT from reverb.com, and I later decided to sell that one.. I kinda wish I had kept it though, as it had all the options I would have chosen if I had custom-ordered it myself. Also it'll be difficult to buy one like that again now that G&L is gone.

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Gamgee on Fri Jun 12 16:15:31 2026
    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Jun 11 2026 08:43 pm

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley
    when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was
    higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American goods. What a concept.

    I feel like it can be difficult to know what's actually built in the US anymore. Even if the company is an American company, the product is sometimes assembled in other countries (cars are a prime example, where cars from an American brand might be assembled in Mexico or the US, for instance). And even when they're assembled in the US, some of the parts are often made overseas.

    Nightfox
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jun 13 10:46:38 2026
    I _think_ you mean patents, though I think these may be getting into some more nebulous concepts where it's not especially either.

    I think you're right - I suppose I was thinking of implied consent - if you don't actively pursue remedies, that could hamper your ability to
    sue companies for patent infringement?

    Now that I think about it, what I _probably_ should have corrected with is "trademark", as I think that best fits what you're saying.

    And that would also not have an expiration date (so long as it's defended), unlike patents. (or theoretically copyright, but copyright length is long enough to be de facto unlimited).

    I am most obviously not a lawyer.

    Yeah, and probably most importantly here, no one here is a lawyer for Fender or whomever they're suing.

    But I haven't really looked much into the legal arguments they're making.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Sat Jun 13 10:57:01 2026
    I've heard Fender's guitar headstock shape is patented (or copyrighted?) in the US, whereas their guitar body shapes are not. That's why you (generally) don't see any other guitar makers making guitars with the exact same headstock shape in the US, but plenty with Strat & Tele
    bodies.

    According to: https://www.guitarworld.com/music-industry/fender-legal-ruling-protect-stratoca ster-body-design

    ...a March legal ruling says that the Stratocaster is a copyrighted work of art rather than a purely functional design.

    Which at first I went, "Wait, what? That seems silly." But then I realized that this was saying, effectively, "you can make your own guitar, with all the same features and designs, but if you _also_ make it _look_ exactly the same, it's copyright infringement."

    Which seems less silly, as it's effectively saying, "no, you can't legally build an exact copy".

    But that was a European court.

    And was evidently a default ruling.

    Which Fender is now using to pressure others, in a more-expansive way, including US-based manufacturers.

    But how exactly that'll turn out is unknown.

    That site did have more info on it, though, with a piece on why someone thinks that Fender won't be successful on this.

    https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/electric-guitars/6-reasons-why-fender-wont-win -its-stratocaster-legal-campaign-according-to-the-lawyer-who-beat-them-before

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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Sat Jun 13 08:23:59 2026
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fender guitar lawsuits in Europe
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Jun 11 2026 08:43 pm

    Oakland PD looked at BMW and Harley motorcycles, then went with Harley
    when they realized the resale value at the end of their police life was
    higher. I don't understand it myself.

    Maybe they wanted to support America. You know, buy American goods. What a concept.

    I feel like it can be difficult to know what's actually built in the US anymore. Even if the company is an American company, the product is sometimes assembled in other countries (cars are a prime example, where cars from an American brand might be assembled in Mexico or the US, for instance). And even when they're assembled in the US, some of the
    parts are often made overseas.

    Sure. Yes, I know that's all true. I was just speaking more generally,
    as in buying from an American company instead of a foreign one.
    Especially perhaps when the buying is done by a government agency such as
    a large city police force.



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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to Gamgee on Sat Jun 13 11:48:50 2026
    On Saturday, June 13th Gamgee was heard saying...
    Sure. Yes, I know that's all true. I was just speaking more generally, as in buying from an American company instead of a foreign one. Especially perhaps when the buying is done by a government agency such as a large city police force.

    This I can totally agree on at this level. At the government level, if you need a lot of "foo", you can make it happen organically. But it's still going to cost you a hell of a lot more than shopping out, and if it requires any sort of manual laybor, it's going to be cheaper elesewhere.


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