• do they really help ?

    From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to all on Mon Jan 7 19:22:18 2008
    This is a morbid topic. If you don't want to read a morbid topic
    please skip it by and that'll be fine.

    The morbid topic is giving your body upon death to science.

    I'm wondering if they have ever actually beneifed mankind this way
    other than teaching new medical students anatomy.

    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    c.



    ... We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Roger Nelson@1:3828/7 to Cindy Haglund on Tue Jan 8 09:40:50 2008
    This is a morbid topic. If you don't want to read a morbid topic
    please skip it by and that'll be fine.

    The morbid topic is giving your body upon death to science.

    I'm wondering if they have ever actually beneifed mankind this way
    other than teaching new medical students anatomy.

    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    This isn't the only time you were right. (-:


    Regards,

    Roger

    ... Before you see the light, you must die.
    --- D'Bridge 2.94
    * Origin: NCS BBS (1:3828/7)
  • From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to Roger Nelson on Tue Jan 8 11:03:04 2008
    0n (08 Jan 08) Roger Nelson wrote to Cindy Haglund...

    This is a morbid topic. If you don't want to read a morbid topic
    please skip it by and that'll be fine.

    The morbid topic is giving your body upon death to science.

    I'm wondering if they have ever actually benefited mankind this way
    other than teaching new medical students anatomy.

    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    This isn't the only time you were right. (-:

    I know a lot can be learned but so far as I know nothing that isn't
    known already while the person as alive, and the info never seems to
    help anybody in the way of prevention/cure of common aliments.

    I think the use of MRI's and other advanced diagnostics may well
    replace actual autopsies. There are programs now for medical students
    to study anatomy using computer graphics/virtual reality. Not the same
    thing but I suppose it's easier and may attract more potential medical
    students though eventually they DO have to deal with the real thing.
    heh. There's no getting away from that.

    I'm recalling a Open heart surgery film wherein the surgeon , after
    the surgery held q/a session with those High School students who had
    observed the surgery. One student asked: What is it you like least
    about surgery.

    The surgeon said: The smell.


    Cindy



    ... He who laughs, lasts.

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Roger Nelson@1:3828/7 to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 9 07:09:54 2008
    I know a lot can be learned but so far as I know nothing that isn't
    known already while the person as alive, and the info never seems to
    help anybody in the way of prevention/cure of common aliments.

    I wonder if anyone really does.

    I think the use of MRI's and other advanced diagnostics may well
    replace actual autopsies. There are programs now for medical students
    to study anatomy using computer graphics/virtual reality. Not the same thing but I suppose it's easier and may attract more potential medical students though eventually they DO have to deal with the real thing.
    heh. There's no getting away from that.

    CGI and finding out why a cadaver got to its state are two vastly different things. In order for CGI to work, you'd have to input information you couldn't
    hope to get except from the cadaver.

    I'm recalling a Open heart surgery film wherein the surgeon , after
    the surgery held q/a session with those High School students who had observed the surgery. One student asked: What is it you like least
    about surgery.

    The surgeon said: The smell.

    Nice.


    Regards,

    Roger

    ... Even after fusion, confusion remains.
    --- D'Bridge 2.94
    * Origin: NCS BBS (1:3828/7)
  • From Andy Ball@1:261/38 to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 9 11:06:04 2008
    Hello Cindy,

    CH> ...giving your body upon death to science. I'm wondering if they
    > have ever actually beneifed mankind this way other than teaching
    > new medical students anatomy. After the body functions cease
    > much information is lost.

    Does it depend on how interesting or unusual one's body (and its
    medical condition) is? As to body functions ceasing, that may be less of an issue if samples are taken promptly. Even if the only good that comes of it is
    a med/surgical student with a little more knowlege or experience, perhaps that's enough.

    - Andy Ball.

    --- BBBS/LiI v4.01 Flag
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From James Bradley@1:134/77 to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 9 20:02:18 2008
    On or about: 01-08-08 11:03, Cindy Haglund did engage Roger Nelson regarding, but not limited to: do they really help ?

    0n (08 Jan 08) Roger Nelson wrote to Cindy Haglund...

    This is a morbid topic. If you don't want to read a morbid topic
    please skip it by and that'll be fine.

    The morbid topic is giving your body upon death to science.

    I'm wondering if they have ever actually benefited mankind this way
    other than teaching new medical students anatomy.

    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    This isn't the only time you were right. (-:

    I know a lot can be learned but so far as I know nothing that isn't
    known already while the person as alive, and the info never seems to
    help anybody in the way of prevention/cure of common aliments.

    I think the use of MRI's and other advanced diagnostics may well
    replace actual autopsies. There are programs now for medical students
    to study anatomy using computer graphics/virtual reality. Not the same thing but I suppose it's easier and may attract more potential medical students though eventually they DO have to deal with the real thing.
    heh. There's no getting away from that.

    The only cadaver that continues to benefit research AFAIK, is the convicted murderer condemned to lethal injection. He signed his body to science, where they froze him, and sliced his remains into cross sections. This continues to trump the resolution of even a CT scan. Besides teaching anatomy to students, bodies may be used to calibrate "crash test dummies".

    When dad departed last year, we found out his doctor lied to him about donating
    his body to science. He was resolute in knowing that all the mechanics of his remains would be taken care of, but we then found out only remains weighing 175lb or less, and ones without a history of oncology were acceptable. I doubt I could ever forgive his x-doctor, because dad even returned from an "Are you sure?" visit with an affirmative response from him.

    I'm recalling a Open heart surgery film wherein the surgeon , after
    the surgery held q/a session with those High School students who had observed the surgery. One student asked: What is it you like least
    about surgery.

    The surgeon said: The smell.


    Cindy



    ... He who laughs, lasts.

    -!- PPoint 3.01
    ! Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)



    ... James

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:134/77)
  • From Allen Prunty@1:2320/100 to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 9 21:56:36 2008
    Re: do they really help ?
    By: Cindy Haglund to All on Mon Jan 07 2008 07:22 pm

    This is a morbid topic. If you don't want to read a morbid topic
    please skip it by and that'll be fine.

    It's not that morbid.... but I will leave the warning on top.

    The morbid topic is giving your body upon death to science.

    I'm wondering if they have ever actually beneifed mankind this way
    other than teaching new medical students anatomy.

    I have a cousin with a rare condition called Marfan's syndrome. He has been aked to leave his body to science. Marfan's syndrom is where the body attacks the connective tissues and breaks down the bonds between practically everything.

    My cousin will be donating his body after death and has been told that the study of the MRI's and etc that's already been done plus the dissection of his body shortly after death will give science VOLUMES of information on how to treat this awful condition.

    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    Obviously they wanted it or they would not ask for it <G>. I don't think that anything will be lost in this case.

    Plus you have to remember that medical students practice surgery on cadavers. I would rather them practice on someone who is already dead than someone alive that they could kill.

    There are many who benefit from these donations.

    Allen

    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to Allen Prunty on Thu Jan 10 09:56:36 2008
    I have a cousin with a rare condition called Marfan's syndrome. He
    has been aked to leave his body to science. Marfan's syndrom is where
    the body attacks the connective tissues and breaks down the bonds
    between practically
    everything.

    My cousin will be donating his body after death and has been told that
    the study of the MRI's and etc that's already been done plus the dissection of his body shortly after death will give science VOLUMES
    of information on how to treat this awful condition.

    But I wonder how much they can actually learn after the body stops functioning. So many conditions go unchecked or can't be determined
    because the testing, for example isn't done when the condition is
    actually actively manifesting. (That is the onset physicological
    changes taper off after awhile.)

    IE: I've been anemic most of my life and yet whenever I had my blood
    tested the test would show normal.. well that's in a finger stick and
    a tube drawn from the arm. Must have been that when I finally DID get
    diagnosed was the right timing ... OR it could be I was getting
    enough iron but not absorbing it well. I found out by the way iron
    absorption is lowered by the presence of other elements such as
    calcium.

    The condition you cite is similar to other auto immune conditions. :(
    There's a common bond in there where the body's immune system attacks
    itself; treats it's own cells as alien substances. :(

    You know folks the term 'AIDS' isn't just the HIV virus variety.
    Allergies to one's own tissues/hair whatever are auto immune too.

    Seems to me it would take live tissue to find out what that common
    flawed or rather dysfunctional mechanism is.


    After the body functions cease much information is lost.

    Obviously they wanted it or they would not ask for it <G>. I don't
    think that anything will be lost in this case.

    Some info can be gleaned yes. SUch as the structure/physical
    appearance of effected tissue. Knowing what it looks like can aid in
    diagnostic screening. That's one help. Yeah.

    Plus you have to remember that medical students practice surgery on cadavers. I would rather them practice on someone who is already dead
    than someone alive that they could kill.

    Yes they do. And good point!

    Aside: Have any of you read this? It scares me! I hope it's not too
    common! An article in the paper cited how many surgeons found to have
    been 'on drugs' while operating, are not dismissed from practice!

    How's that for a legit reason to fear and loathe hospitals. I've read
    elsewhere that the most frequent abusers of drugs like pain killers
    are those in the professions where access is easiest.


    There are many who benefit from these donations.

    I'm sure they do. Organ transplants for example. But there's another
    side where some folks would rather go feed Nature and benefit the
    other life forms on this human dominated human polluted planet.


    c

    ... A bird in hand is safer than one overhead.

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Allen Prunty@1:2320/100 to James Bradley on Fri Jan 11 00:20:16 2008
    Re: do they really help ?
    By: James Bradley to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 09 2008 08:02 pm

    The only cadaver that continues to benefit research AFAIK, is the convicted murderer condemned to lethal injection. He signed his body to science, where they froze him, and sliced his remains into cross sections. This continues t trump the resolution of even a CT scan. Besides teaching anatomy to students bodies may be used to calibrate "crash test dummies".

    I have worked in forensics for years and can think of many cadavers that have radically changed the rules of crimescene investigations.

    Have you ever ready about a place in Nashville called "the body farm"?

    This place takes cadavers that were donated to science... and places them in real crime scene situtations ... studying how the body decomposes. I've been there and it's absolutely fascinating... and I can honestly say that this kind of research has solved a lot of crimes.

    There are many ways bodies are used in the pursuit of science... it's not always just medical.

    Allen

    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From James Bradley@1:134/77 to Cindy Haglund on Fri Jan 11 01:22:12 2008
    On or about: 01-10-08 09:56, Cindy Haglund did engage Allen Prunty regarding, but not limited to: do they really help ?

    Aside: Have any of you read this? It scares me! I hope it's not too common! An article in the paper cited how many surgeons found to have
    been 'on drugs' while operating, are not dismissed from practice!

    Just like exposing pilots who nipped from their gin before reporting to work, did that stop you from flying? Best the problem be identified, and fixed. The Japanese say, "Fix the problem, not the blame." Now, I doubt the problem is as widespread as Father Badtouch being moved all over the world to deflect blame/present more opportunities for blame, so I say great, the problem has been discovered. Take a grain of salt with it, that I doubt we need to be as concerned as the article suggest we should be. A sensational article will always sell more papers than a realistic one.

    How's that for a legit reason to fear and loathe hospitals. I've read elsewhere that the most frequent abusers of drugs like pain killers
    are those in the professions where access is easiest.

    Surgeons, the last I heard, were humans too.

    ... A bird in hand is safer than one overhead.

    A bird in the hand, has an easier target to hit.


    ... Those who sling mud, lose ground.

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:134/77)
  • From James Bradley@1:134/77 to Allen Prunty on Fri Jan 11 21:30:00 2008
    On or about: 01-11-08 00:20, Allen Prunty did engage James Bradley regarding, but not limited to: do they really help ?

    Re: do they really help ?
    By: James Bradley to Cindy Haglund on Wed Jan 09 2008 08:02 pm

    The only cadaver that continues to benefit research
    AFAIK, is the convicted
    murderer condemned to lethal injection. He signed his
    body to science, where
    they froze him, and sliced his remains into cross
    sections. This continues t
    trump the resolution of even a CT scan. Besides teaching
    anatomy to students
    bodies may be used to calibrate "crash test dummies".

    I have worked in forensics for years and can think of many cadavers
    that have radically changed the rules of crimescene investigations.

    Have you ever ready about a place in Nashville called "the body farm"?

    I have only seen a documentary program about it, and yes, that is one use I forgot about.

    This place takes cadavers that were donated to science... and places
    them in real crime scene situtations ... studying how the body
    decomposes. I've been there and it's absolutely fascinating... and I
    can honestly say that this kind of research has solved a lot of crimes.

    And a reason alone, that I would consider donation. Maybe not as glamourous a conclusion a citizen might imagine, but my... What an outcome! Me, as I elevated my weight past 175 lbs 5 years ago, precludes me from the program. Posing a question: Wouldn't they need data on overweight decomp?

    There are many ways bodies are used in the pursuit of science... it's
    not always just medical.

    It must kinda get your goat then, with all the CSI 'this', and CSI 'that'? If a
    guy with a pedestrian knowledge of the science can spot holes in the processes,
    I would imagine the programs are unwatchable to someone in-the-know.



    ... James

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:134/77)
  • From Allen Prunty@1:2320/100 to James Bradley on Sun Jan 13 03:25:08 2008
    Re: do they really help ?
    By: James Bradley to Allen Prunty on Fri Jan 11 2008 09:30 pm

    And a reason alone, that I would consider donation. Maybe not as glamourous conclusion a citizen might imagine, but my... What an outcome! Me, as I elevated my weight past 175 lbs 5 years ago, precludes me from the program. Posing a question: Wouldn't they need data on overweight decomp?

    When I toured it they wanted morbidly obese corpses.

    It must kinda get your goat then, with all the CSI 'this', and CSI 'that'? I guy with a pedestrian knowledge of the science can spot holes in the process I would imagine the programs are unwatchable to someone in-the-know.

    The CSI that you see on tv is NOTHING like real life. It's quite sanatized.

    Allen

    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From James Bradley@1:134/77 to Allen Prunty on Mon Jan 14 03:55:02 2008
    On or about: 01-13-08 03:25, Allen Prunty did engage James Bradley regarding, but not limited to: do they really help ?

    Re: do they really help ?
    By: James Bradley to Allen Prunty on Fri Jan 11 2008 09:30 pm

    And a reason alone, that I would consider donation.
    Maybe not as glamourous
    conclusion a citizen might imagine, but my... What an outcome! Me, as I elevated my weight past 175 lbs 5 years ago, precludes
    me from the program.
    Posing a question: Wouldn't they need data on overweight decomp?

    When I toured it they wanted morbidly obese corpses.

    I'm sure there are plenty to chose from, these days. (sic.) In Canada too, we might have different standards, but I was rather floored by the 175lb limit. I was that weight at graduation to an ounce, and now that middle age set in... I guess for the anatomy students, they prefer to get to the heart of the matter. (Pun unavoidable?)


    It must kinda get your goat then, with all the CSI [...]
    I would imagine the programs are unwatchable to someone in-the-know.

    The CSI that you see on tv is NOTHING like real life. It's quite sanatized.

    I imagine one good thing to the popularity, is there are that many more students to the science. When a nephew-once-removed said he was entering a criminalistics program back in the day, my first thought was he was learning how to crack safes. <L> Once he explained the science, my next thought was that
    he didn't have the stick-to-it-ivness it would take. He didn't.



    ... James

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:134/77)
  • From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to Roger Nelson on Mon Jan 14 14:48:34 2008
    0n (09 Jan 08) Roger Nelson wrote to Cindy Haglund...

    I know a lot can be learned but so far as I know nothing that isn't
    known already while the person as alive, and the info never seems to
    help anybody in the way of prevention/cure of common aliments.

    I wonder if anyone really does.


    I do not totally 'get it' why so many people express aversion to
    prevention. They seem to think of it as control freaking. The same way
    some folks think of setting limits/boundaries and establising positive discipline is 'controlling'. Wait! What's wrong with that? Control
    does not have to be mean/cruel coercive and the best kind of it stars
    with the self. Maybe that is my answer. Seems most folks would rather
    attempt to control others than start with their own behavior as an
    example that in fact would have far greater influence then the typical
    do as I say not as I do hypocrisy we see so endemic today.

    I wish I could make this humorous but hmm. Well I'll try later :)

    ....


    CGI and finding out why a cadaver got to its state are two vastly different things. In order for CGI to work, you'd have to input information you couldn't hope to get except from the cadaver.


    Who cares though ohw it got that way if knowing isn't going to hlep
    the living who would refuse to NOT do what what got the cad that
    way. For example even when people drop dead of lung cancer ... as
    autopsies show due to cigarattes, doesn't seem to stop people who want
    to die of lung cancer does it.

    I'm not saying the info isn't useful but now that we know it we don't
    need to keep proving it. I think more useful info is found with living tissue anyway.

    ....


    I'm recalling a Open heart surgery film wherein the surgeon , after
    the surgery held q/a session with those High School students who had observed the surgery. One student asked: What is it you like least
    about surgery.

    The surgeon said: The smell.

    Nice.

    Well it is true.. the reason is the iron and salt in the blood. The bitter sour salty smell is the blood.

    Cindy

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to Andy Ball on Fri Jan 18 10:48:30 2008
    0n (09 Jan 08) Andy Ball wrote to Cindy Haglund...

    Hello Cindy,

    CH> ...giving your body upon death to science. I'm wondering if they
    > have ever actually beneifed mankind this way other than teaching
    > new medical students anatomy. After the body functions cease
    > much information is lost.

    Does it depend on how interesting or unusual one's body (and its

    Depends on the pov... and for what purpose. Frankly I'd rather give
    me to momma nature than to man's nature.


    Cinders

    ... We've secretly replaced their dilithium with new Folger's crystals...

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Andy Ball@1:261/38 to Cindy Haglund on Sat Jan 19 01:23:22 2008
    Hello Cindy,

    CH> Frankly I'd rather give me to momma nature than to
    > man's nature.

    There was a television series in Britain during the
    eighties that included a medical student who came home with a leg to study. It
    ended up as a hood ornament on his car!

    - Andy.

    --- BBBS/LiI v4.01 Flag
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Cindy Haglund@1:124/6308.20 to Andy Ball on Sun Jan 20 10:27:32 2008
    0n (19 Jan 08) Andy Ball wrote to Cindy Haglund...

    Hello Cindy,

    CH> Frankly I'd rather give me to momma nature than to
    > man's nature.

    There was a television series in Britain during the
    eighties that included a medical student who came home with a leg to study. It ended up as a hood ornament on his car!

    yeah and there's so many gross jokes mortuary people make :( I
    realize they do that to make what they do more bearable... but oh well
    I think you know what I mean. I think most of us when it's our time
    would rather just vaporize...

    Cindy

    --- PPoint 3.01
    * Origin: Up a palm tree (1:124/6308.20)
  • From Andy Ball@1:261/38 to Cindy Haglund on Tue Jan 22 01:11:00 2008
    Hello Cindy,

    CH> I think most of us when it's our time would rather
    > just vaporize...

    I would happily let someone use my body for spare parts.
    I'm not allowed to give blood though so it seems unlikely that I would qualify as an organ/tissue donor.

    - Andy Ball.

    --- BBBS/LiI v4.01 Flag
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Allen Prunty@1:2320/100 to Andy Ball on Tue Jan 22 22:51:18 2008
    Re: do they really help ?
    By: Andy Ball to Cindy Haglund on Tue Jan 22 2008 01:11 am

    CH> I think most of us when it's our time would rather
    > just vaporize...

    I would happily let someone use my body for spare parts.
    I'm not allowed to give blood though so it seems unlikely that I would quali as an organ/tissue donor.

    If I had anything that anyone would want I would gladly donate, but I am a diabetic and don't think I would qualify.... I would give my body to do diabetic research in a heartbeat though.

    Allen

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The Derby City BBS
    -= Allen Prunty =- telnet://derbycitybbs.com
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Where Friends Gather
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)