Hello Bj”rn!

12 Oct 23 14:17, you wrote to me:

It should be the originating node. I will verify in the MBSE
code that it does not change this.

I pointed out this origNode error many years ago (because it made a program of mine more difficult to get functioning properly).

It does cause some issues. I did some digging in the mbfido code last night, and discovered that it actually does something similar to SBBSEcho, in that it parses the Origin line of EchoMail messages to determine the origin address.

The response was the usual "this is how we've always done it" and nothing more happened. I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware out there.

I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

BTW, this is still a real name echo, yes?

It is.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
* Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)

Andrew,

I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

What about it ?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Ward!

13 Oct 23 10:27, you wrote to me:

I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard.
The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice,
but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

What about it ?

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's permission first. The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
* Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)

Hello Andrew,

On Friday October 13 2023 05:09, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
Bush's permission first.

I tried that and failed.

The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

Good luck.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Nieuw Schnøørd (2:280/5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Friday October 13 2023 12:43, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

Good luck.

Just use ChatGPT for that? :)

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Andrew,

What about it ?

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's permission first.

I know that ... but what about it?

Several years ago Randy Bush and that weirdo from San Francisco, what's his name again ... oh yes, Tom Jennings, threatened to sue me in a court of law if I or anyone else dared to touch that document by even changing a comma.

Of course, such a court case would need to be started 'here' and I have been sued over Fidonet matters before. It's documented in Fidonews. It would be without merit, no decent lawyer would take it.

When I told Randy and Tom to go fuck themselves (not with these words) years after either had left Fidonet, Randy went into a fit stating that Fidonet is nothing but cat-litter reeking like cat-urine ... and Bjorn or Michiel undoubtedly have another quote saying something about "pissant"-stuff.

For me Randy (and Tom too) have lost all the respect they once deserved.

It is my opinion that if FTS-0001 needs to be updated, it can be ammended without touching the original text and keeping everybody happy, even the cat people with their cat-wisdoms...

Of course, it's an opinion and everyone has one, just like they have an arse, and it stinks ... I was taught that in Montana.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Good ${greeting_time}, Andrew!

13 Oct 2023 05:09:30, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard.
The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice,
but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

What about it ?

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
Bush's permission first.

I've once offered a working method of bypassing any and all of fu...nny copyrights.

The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

Yes, and the new document could be based just on existing open software.


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
--- /bin/vi
* Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)

Good ${greeting_time}, Michiel!

13 Oct 2023 12:43:34, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
Bush's permission first.

MvdV> I tried that and failed.

That was never expected to work.

The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

MvdV> Good luck.

I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... that's why I really dislike fools.
--- /bin/vi
* Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)

Hey Alexey!

I've once offered a working method of bypassing any and all of
fu...nny copyrights.

Sounds interesting. I'd be highly interested in such a conversation especially where it pertains to obsolescence.

Yes, and the new document could be based just on existing open
software.

That works for me.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- o- -o -o -o o- o- o- o- -o o- o- -o o- -o o- /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) /) (\ /) /) (\ /) (\ /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... A mæg God wyrcan wunder æfter wundre, wuldres hyrde.
God may ever work wonder after wonder, the Guardian of glory.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hi, Andrew -- on Oct 13 2023 at 05:09, you wrote:

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure

When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright law.


Cheers... Dallas

--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

Alexey,

I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...

+1

One day I need to go to Moscow and meet all you people there ...when all the Ukraine-shit-dust has settled.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Dallas,

When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright law.

Why should you care in Canada?

I say to just ignore it and do what needs to be done. Then see if someone in Portland OR really gives enough of a shit. Blame the international Coordinator, I've been sued before ...

The meaning of the copyright is to protect Fidonet and keep it available for "all", and that's a good thing. We've survived 28 years without Randy Bush.

Before I retired I was a manager at the phone company. I was not interested much why things don't work, but rather in what it took to make it work.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Dallas!

13 Oct 23 10:43, you wrote to me:

Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does
not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and
at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to
secure

When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright
law.

In general, US copyright protection for works created after January 1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
* Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)

Andrew,

When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright AL>DH> law.

In general, US copyright protection for works created after January 1,
1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.

I think you are terribly mistaken.

The US is a signatory of the Berne Convention and has ratified it, plus there are other implications when going "international" ... copyright on texts which I wrote, having been published in National Geographic, was never honoured. That's how it works ... copyright ... reproduction rights ... intellectual property rights ... It's way more complicated than googling a website.

It's like George Patton and Lee Iacocca once said ... "either lead, follow or get out of the way". Citing why things cannot be done, is not a good example.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Alexey,

On Saturday October 14 2023 06:22, you wrote to me:

To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's
permission first.

MvdV>> I tried that and failed.

That was never expected to work.

I had some hope it would work, else I would not have tried.

The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

MvdV>> Good luck.

I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...

I would like others to respect my copyright. So I should respect the copyrights of others. Even if it is not convenient and the other is an asshole.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Nieuw Schnøørd (2:280/5555)

Ward Dossche -> Dallas Hinton skrev 2023-10-14 10:14:

I say to just ignore it and do what needs to be done. Then see if
someone in Portland OR really gives enough of a shit.

Been there, done that, got nothing to show for it:

http://eljaco.se/FILES/FTSC/FTS-0001.017%20--%20RFC.txt


--
People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Andrew -- on Oct 14 2023 at 05:25, you wrote:

In general, US copyright protection for works created after January
1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70
years.

Thanks - that's the same in Canada. I don't know the implications of a Canadian breaking US copyright (or vice versa).


Cheers... Dallas

--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

Hey Dallas!

I don't know the implications of a Canadian breaking US copyright

Your lawyer gets to add on the exchange rate to his/her fees.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- -o -o o- o- o- -o o- o- -o o- o- o- o- -o
(\ /) (\ (\ /) /) /) (\ /) /) (\ /) /) /) /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Ellen sceal on eorle; ecg sceal wið hellme hilde gebidan.
Courage belongs in a warrior; sword against helmet shall face battle.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Ward!

14 Oct 23 13:24, you wrote to me:

When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US

copyright

law.

In general, US copyright protection for works created after
January 1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an
additional 70 years.

I think you are terribly mistaken.

I don't. The author of the document wrote it in the US. I made no claims regarding the copyright anywhere but in the US.

The US is a signatory of the Berne Convention and has ratified it,
plus there are other implications when going "international" ...

That may be the case, but I stand by what I wrote above. I made no attempt to determine exactly how the US copyright would apply in other countries under the Berne Convention.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
* Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Andrew Leary to Bj­rn Felten on Fri Oct 13 2023 12:44 am

I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #22:
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
Norco, CA WX: 93.3øF, 15.0% humidity, 0 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hi Bj÷rn!

12 Oct 2023 23:08, from Bj÷rn Felten -> Maurice Kinal:

It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
-- abandon it for better software.

You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

CU, Ricsi

... It's the net: clarity and depth of thought are totally out of place.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: WARNING! I'm naked under these clothes! (2:310/31)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to Andrew Leary on Sun Oct 15 2023 02:03 pm

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.

I'd disagree.

The question that I started was (and I'll paraphrase) what was the origNet/origNode represent in a packed message header.

The answers I've seen are:
* Its the source message address,
* Its the last hop's address

It should be known as one or the other.

The english description "orig..." implies it is from the source of the message, ie: the originator, but convention seems to be that it represents the last hop.

That should be clarified and updated.


...ëîåï
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)

It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
-- abandon it for better software.

You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

LOL! Yeah, that's probably a better alternative. More easily available is the dos emulator in Windows (CMD.EXE).


--
People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
-- abandon it for better software.

You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

LOL! Yeah, that's probably a better alternative. More easily
available is the dos emulator in Windows (CMD.EXE).

How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

I don't have any computers running Windoze here, and don't want any.



... Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.


--
People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Bj?rn.

17 Oct 23 18:10, you wrote to Dan Clough:

How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.

You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

- Android - 40%
- MS Windows - 29%
- iOS - 17%

and others.

Vitaliy

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20231007
* Origin: Aurora, Colorado (1:104/117)

Vitaliy,

You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

- Android - 40%
- MS Windows - 29%
- iOS - 17%

and others.

Stay away from the cheap vodka ... 8-)

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Vitaliy Aksyonov wrote to Bj?rn Felten <=-

17 Oct 23 18:10, you wrote to Dan Clough:

How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.

You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

- Android - 40%
- MS Windows - 29%
- iOS - 17%

Well..... he did say *desktop* operating system.

How many desktops run Android...?

That's right.



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system
(OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70
percent.

That may be true, I don't really know. My guess is that it's something
less than that.

What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it, or break the law and use a pirated copy. To use FreeDOS, one simply has to download it and use it.

So, I ask again - how is Windoze more easily available than FreeDOS? Literally *ANYONE* can have a legal copy of FreeDOS within 2 minutes of reading this message.

I therefore declare your claim to be false/wrong.

Case closed. NEXT!






... Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

Dan Clough -> Bj”rn Felten skrev 2023-10-18 02:52:

What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it,

Or you can purchase a desktop computer. When was the last time you bought a desktop computer, other than an Apple variant, that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?


--
People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: deon to Rob Swindell on Tue Oct 17 2023 08:59 am

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to Andrew Leary on Sun Oct 15 2023 02:03 pm

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.

I'd disagree.

The norm/rules for netmail and echomail are different.

The question that I started was (and I'll paraphrase) what was the origNet/origNode represent in a packed message header.

The answers I've seen are:
* Its the source message address,
* Its the last hop's address

It should be known as one or the other.

The english description "orig..." implies it is from the source of the message, ie: the originator, but convention seems to be that it represents the last hop.

That should be clarified and updated.

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #47:
He said he'll break my legs, he meant It... he gave me the dead mackerel eyes. Norco, CA WX: 67.0øF, 70.0% humidity, 0 mph N wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Or you can purchase a desktop computer. When was the last time you
bought a desktop computer, other than an Apple variant, that did *not*
have Windows pre-installed?

I have never in my life bought a desktop computer, prefer to build 'm myself that way I know what's in it, what it does and how to repair it.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20230201
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

I dont wish it did.

FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what your refering to though...


...ëîåï
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)

Hey Björn!

When was the last time you bought a desktop computer,

Fairly recently except I call them PCs, sometimes servers when appropriate.

other than an Apple variant,

Never. Vastly overpriced label makers.

that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?

That never happened. I did have a laptop that had Windows pre-installed but it never stood a chance and it never got booted before the drive was wiped out and replaced with Linux. I still have it but hardly ever use it. The last thing I installed on there was the latest Slackware-current. It needs upgrading. I figure linux-6.6 which should be soon.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- -o -o -o
/) (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Hyge sceal gehealden, hond gewealden.
The mind must be restrained, the hand trained.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Dan Clough -> Bj”rn Felten skrev 2023-10-18 02:52:

What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it,

Or you can purchase a desktop computer.

Okay, so even though you won't say it, you do concede that getting/using FreeDOS is indeed more readily available.

When was the last time you bought a desktop computer, other than an
Apple variant, that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?

Probably around 1996 or so. I don't buy desktop computers. I buy the
pieces and assemble them myself, and Windoze is not part of that.

Game. Set. Match.



... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: deon to Rob Swindell on Wed Oct 18 2023 07:04 pm

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

I dont wish it did.

FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what your refering to though...

FTS-1 talks about packed *netmail* messages, which are different than packed *echomail* messages.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #65:
He's got to make his own mistakes and learn to mend the mess he makes
Norco, CA WX: 85.3øF, 39.0% humidity, 2 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to deon on Wed Oct 18 2023 05:46 pm

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: deon to Rob Swindell on Wed Oct 18 2023 07:04 pm

Re: Question on FTS-0001
By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

I dont wish it did.

FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what your refering to though...

Let me try further clarifcation: when FTS-1 (FSC-1) was first written, there was only one type of FidoNet message: the one-to-one private message that we now call "netmail". It wasn't until the invention described in FTS-4 that one-to-many messages (then called "conference mail", but now commonly called "echomail") was introduced. So every reference to a "message" in FTS-1 is implicitly a reference to a "netmail message". There's no mention of "netmail" or "echomail" in FTS-1 because there these terms were not in use when originally written since there was no need to disambiguate between one-to-one and one-to-many FidoNet messages. Only the former existed... until "conference mail" (and FTS-4) came along. FSC/FTS-1 was likely formalized and published some time after conference mail (echomail) was introduced and commonplace, but the orgins and chronological evolution of FidoNet was maintained in the incremental numbering and increasing comprehensiveness of the published specs. FTS-1 isn't supposed to paint the complete picture of FTN, just the foundation (with some extraneous, some now-obsolete, details thrown in for historic context).
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #28:
Gomey, got beat your pinata. - Hank Schrader
Norco, CA WX: 69.1øF, 74.0% humidity, 0 mph NNE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)