Hey Maurice!

On Sun, Dec 08 2024 20:41:25 +0000, you wrote ..

Other than tacking on the prefix ' > ' the above quote is an exact
replica of the original text. This differs slightly from what Nick
last posted where the prefix omitted the leading space, '> '. Either
way works for me but am noting that mutt (email agent with vim as
default editor) uses the '> ' quote prefix which appears to be the norm
in traditional email applications.

Can confirm that the leading space is not included in most of the email and/or newsgroup clients I've tried recently.

This list consists of Thunderbird, Claws Mail, slrn, tin, alpine, and most recently (and used in this message), neomutt. However, I believe that string is configurable in most of the ones I just listed, but if you change the default, then external editors like vi(m) or nano don't recognize them when you try to reformat the quoted text.

... �onne se heretoga waca� �onne bi� eall se here swi�e gehindred.

How's the weather up there? This past Monday and Tuesday we got to -30F (-34.44444C).

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Sun, Dec 08 2024 17:25:31 +0000, you wrote ..

... Eþel byþ oferleof æghwylcum men.

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So here goes another. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hej Nick!

Can confirm that the leading space is not included in most of the
email and/or newsgroup clients I've tried recently.

That matches what I've seen with mutt since it became my default email client way back when. I have yet to do any further work on it since I am still getting probed and feeling very much under the weather. :-(

Speaking of weather ...

This past Monday and Tuesday we got to -30F (-34.44444C).

WHOA!!! Nowhere near that cold here. We're averaging around 6C for daytime highs lately. No rain (nor snow) which is a tad scary for this time of year.

I note that your MSG claims cp437 which fails when plugged into an iconv. However, ISO-8859-1 aka LATIN1 works great as shown below;

... Ðonne se heretoga wacað þonne bið eall se here swiðe gehindred.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hej Nick!

... Eþel byþ oferleof æghwylcum men.

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So
here goes another. :)

Much better although no iconv was required since you are successfully claiming UTF-8 which happens to be my default on everything I am currently using for EVERYTHING, including the MSG format.

Dat is mijn verhaal en ik blijf erbij.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- -o o-
(\ /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Mon, Jan 27 2025 01:45:24 +0000, you wrote ..

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So
here goes another. :)

Much better although no iconv was required since you are successfully claiming UTF-8 which happens to be my default on everything I am
currently using for EVERYTHING, including the MSG format.

Yep. I noticed the issue in the first message, so I changed up my .neomuttrc by removing:

set send_charset "us-ascii:ibm437:iso-8859-1:utf-8"

Apparantly all of those characters were able to be translated to ISO-8859-1/LATIN-1 before it got to UTF-8. I understand the order I provided, but Synchronet gave it a CHRS: CP437 kludge for some reason. That's about the jist of what happened. Seems to be working better now with:

set assumed_charset = "ibm437"

.. basically anything without a kludge or a Content-Type header would be assumed to be that, since I'm only using NNTP for FTN related things, anyways.

set charset = "utf-8"
set newsgroups_charset = "utf-8"

Incoming cp437 is still translates correctly by iconv, so as long as I reply to it correctly I should be off to a good start. Neomutt should auto-detect my outgoing message and slap a proper content-type header on it, which Synchronet should be able to read and apply the proper CHRS kludge for FTN. This one will probably go out as ascii, since there is no CP437 or UTF-8 in the message.

By the way, Neomutts provided neomuttrc is over 7k lines. I didn't realize I was punishing myself when I decided to install it and give it a go. :)

Either way, now I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console (automatically viewing in lynx), as well as a nice console NNTP client that supports mime. So a win for me, in my opinion! :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hej Nick!

set assumed_charset = "ibm437"

Which according to IANA is the real name for that code page. I think sticking to real names is preferable given that fts-5003.001 has been seriously corrupted. Same could be said for fts-4008.002 (timezone) but that's another sad story amongst the many obvious flaws that continue to plague fidonet.

Incoming cp437 is still translates correctly by iconv

Yep. cp437 is a legitimate alias.

This one will probably go out as ascii

That is what I see. Near as I can tell my reply to you is also ascii but given that 7-bit ascii is part of utf-8 this isn't really an issue as this reply is evidence of.

I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console (automatically viewing in lynx)

Excellent! links should also work straight out of the box. I have both here.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Tue, Jan 28 2025 02:57:34 +0000, you wrote ..

This one will probably go out as ascii

That is what I see. Near as I can tell my reply to you is also ascii
but given that 7-bit ascii is part of utf-8 this isn't really an issue
as this reply is evidence of.

Yep, understood. However, if whatever I'm using wants to auto-detect and slap the proper charset on the message, so be it (as long as it's correct, of course). This has been the case so far with slrn, tin, and now neomutt (and I think I like the latter the best, so far.. probably because it's the only one of the three that does email *and* nntp).

I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console
(automatically viewing in lynx)

Excellent! links should also work straight out of the box. I have
both here.

Which do you prefer? Do you have an 'off the top of your head' list of pros and cons as your reasoning for keeping both around? Or, is it just to have options? :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

if whatever I'm using wants to auto-detect and slap the proper
charset on the message, so be it (as long as it's correct, of course)

Works for me. I trust your judgement on these matters.

Which do you prefer?

I like both of them.

<Esc>:r !lynx --version
Lynx Version 2.9.2 (31 May 2024)
libwww-FM 2.14, SSL-MM 1.4.1, GNUTLS 3.8.8, ncurses 6.5.20240427(wide)
Built on linux-gnu (Dec 28 2024 22:29:26).

Copyrights held by the Lynx Developers Group,
the University of Kansas, CERN, and other contributors.
Distributed under the GNU General Public License (Version 2).
See https://lynx.invisible-island.net/ and the online help for more information.

<Esc>:r !links -version
Links 2.30

I usually use links for browsing and lynx for conversion of html to text. Also, despite having graphics turned off in links, I can still view all sorts of multimedia files by farming it out to a proper application for whatever format ... all without the need for xorg etal.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- o- -o o-
/) /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg.
That passed away; so will this.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

I usually use links for browsing and lynx for conversion of html to
text. Also, despite having graphics turned off in links, I can still
view all sorts of multimedia files by farming it out to a proper
application for whatever format ... all without the need for xorg
etal.

I see. In my case then, I'm currently only using lynx for conversion of html to text as well. I imagine I don't really have a need for browsing on the same machine at this time.

... ��s ofereode, �isses swa m�g.

What in the world is this?! I believe this is the first time Google translate has failed me (and I've thrown quite a bit at it). It detected it as English, but didn't translate it (left it as English with no change). So I had to use a bit of Google-fu to find out it's part of an Old English poem that translates to: "that passed over, so may this."

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

... ��s ofereode, �isses swa m�g.

Quoting this again, because my settings changes the other day didn't seem to work. Now I'm commenting out 'set assumed_charset = "ibm437"'. Hopefully that's the culprit.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

... Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg.

Sigh, last one. Promise. >:)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hej Nick!

Now I'm commenting out 'set assumed_charset = "ibm437"'. Hopefully
that's the culprit.

No doubt. ibm437 lacks the proper characters for conversion from old english. You'd have better luck with iso-8859-1 but I believe even that lacks at least a couple of proper characters for old english.

utf-8 is the way to go. Speaking for myself ascii is what I use on a daily basis.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- o- -o o-
/) /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 13:55:58 -0600
"Nick Boel -> Maurice Kinal" <0@700.154.1> wrote:

How's the weather up there? This past Monday and Tuesday we got to -30F (-34.44444C).
* Origin: [...](Wisconsin)

It was this near my location overnight:

Latitude 45.07� N | Longitude 77.88� W
Past 24 Hour Conditions

30 January 2025
07:00 n/a -20C (-19.8) calm
06:00 n/a -22C (-21.6) calm
05:00 n/a -24C (-23.9) calm
04:00 n/a -27C (-26.6) calm
03:00 n/a -25C (-25.4) calm
02:00 n/a -24C (-23.5) calm
01:00 n/a -22C (-21.7) calm
00:00 n/a -19C (-19.2)

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 04:39:19 +0000, you wrote ..

No doubt. ibm437 lacks the proper characters for conversion from old english. You'd have better luck with iso-8859-1 but I believe even
that lacks at least a couple of proper characters for old english.

I'm well aware of all that. It's this program's configuration that's kind of baffling me (slrn, tin, and alpine do not and have not acted this way). What in the world would be causing this to send in iso-8859-1 yet it tacks on a 'CHRS: CP437' kludge? Sigh..

I found a new setting that I wasn't previously using. 'assumed_charset' is no longer being used since iconv should be able to detect the charset, anyways.

set send_charset = us-ascii:ibm437:utf-8

.. is seeming to do the trick with a few more tests after my multiple posts here last night.

utf-8 is the way to go. Speaking for myself ascii is what I use on a
daily basis.

I agree. However, if I do (usually accidentally) quote someone's CP437 characters, in some sort of politeness/etiquette/whatever you want to call it, I suppose, I'd prefer that they could read my reply properly in whatever charset they're using.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey August!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 15:23:34 +0200, you wrote ..

How's the weather up there? This past Monday and Tuesday we got to
-30F (-34.44444C).

04:00 n/a -27C (-26.6) calm

That's a bit brisk, too. :)

So those temperatures were early last week, and now today we set a record at 55F (12.8C). I would absolutely love it if it stayed like this for the rest of the winter! :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

What in the world would be causing this to send in iso-8859-1 yet it
tacks on a 'CHRS: CP437' kludge?

I always blame microsoft programmers when seeing things like you describe. You now have me wondering what would happen with cp866 or other 8-bit ibm character sets.

I'd prefer that they could read my reply properly in whatever
charset they're using.

An honourable goal for sure. However I have seen msg's that claim cp437 when they're actually cp1252. A certain Björn was famous for this behavior.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- -o -o
(\ /) (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Sceal þegna gehwilc geþylde nimon.
Every man must acquire patience.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 20:18:05 -0600, you wrote ..

I always blame microsoft programmers when seeing things like you
describe. You now have me wondering what would happen with cp866 or
other 8-bit ibm character sets.

If you shoot me a message with any other 8-bit charsets, I can reply and see what happens.

An honourable goal for sure. However I have seen msg's that claim
cp437 when they're actually cp1252. A certain Björn was famous for
this behavior.

That's exactly what I'm not trying to do. ;)

... Sceal þegna gehwilc geþylde nimon.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

If you shoot me a message with any other 8-bit charsets, I can reply
and see what happens.

�����, ��� ��, 㬭� ��� �ࠪ��

If I did this correct then the above Russian is a translation of "Strong like bull, smart like tractor' in cp866 characters. I left the CHARS kludge set to "UTF-8 4" since I don't wish to screw with the current configuration but will change it in future tests if this proves to be something worth pursuing in the future.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- -o -o o- -o o- o- -o -o -o o- -o o- -o -o
(\ /) (\ (\ /) (\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) (\ /) (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - Sweet Sixteen Penguins of the Apocalypse.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

Hej Maurice!

Сильный, как бык, умный как трактор

More proof that everything you know is wrong. :-)

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- -o o- -o
/) (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 21:42:04 -0600, you wrote ..

If I did this correct then the above Russian is a translation of
"Strong like bull, smart like tractor' in cp866 characters. I left
the CHARS kludge set to "UTF-8 4" since I don't wish to screw with the current configuration but will change it in future tests if this
proves to be something worth pursuing in the future.

That definitely didn't work on any of my newsreaders, and I don't think the CHRS kludge matters much in my case, it's the "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8" that came with this message, most likely.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 22:57:41 -0600, you wrote ..

Сильный, как бык, умный как трактор

More proof that everything you know is wrong. :-)

This one worked much better. ;)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

it's the "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8" that came with
this message, most likely.

Let's try setting the CHRS kludge to cp866 and see what happens before getting too excighted about it.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fus sceal feran, fæge sweltan.
Those who are ready must go, the doomed die.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Nick!

This one worked much better. ;)

That's because it actually was utf-8 converted from the cp866 using iconv.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o -o -o
(\ (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Ne scyle wandian witona ænig þæt he his ælmessan ofte gesylle.
No wise person should hesitate to give alms often.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Fri, Jan 31 2025 18:47:39 -0600, you wrote ..

This one worked much better. ;)

That's because it actually was utf-8 converted from the cp866 using
iconv.

I know exactly what that was. I was being sarcastic, and even included a winking smiley face!

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)