Hello Dmitry!

30 Jul 24 00:54, Dmitry Protasoff wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long before
Putin.

Ah, well, yes and no. He was living and working for KGB in (East) Germany back then (1985-1990) and thus got first hand knowledge of what the Russian politics caused. In hindsight I'd say he learned back then what he would never like to see happening again.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 4:20PM up 45 days, 9:33, 7 users, load averages: 0.36, 0.35, 0.42

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Hello Dmitry,

On Saturday August 03 2024 01:37, you wrote to me:

Just imagine your salary as an engineer at a nuclear power station is
so low at the end of the month that it doesn't even cover your monthly public transport ticket. How much time would you spend worrying about democracy versus how you are going to feed your kids?

Not having the money to pay for food for kids is a very good reason to not have them in the first place. Nuclear power plant enigineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be interested in politics because it is politicians that have the power to actually do something about it. Nuclear power plant engineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

[..]

I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and
scientists. Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.

We had the same problem with telecommunications. Not enought experts.

But you had engineers for the nuclear power plants.

This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the
plural, the people who didn't vote against Putin when they still
could.

You probably just don't understand: it doesn't matter how people vote. What matters is who is counting their votes.

That is not how it was in the early days of Putin when he still could be voted out.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many
of my friends still talk about democracy as something from the
Fidonet era! (I'm not joking).

Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a
democracy... That explains a lot... ;-)

Fidonet is a democracy :)

Yeah right, keep on dreaming.

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the
ultimate ruler..

It was like.. 200 year ago?

Until about 150 years ago...

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in
place. The culture may have been the same but it was a culture
of the elite. The average Russian lived like an African slave
with no rights, in his own country.

Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years
ago.

So people in Netherlands 200 years ago were slaves??

For all intents and purposen: yes. What I am saying is that just like in Russia, or in most other parts of Europe the culture was a culture of the elite. The average European lived like an African slave with no rights in his own country.

So don't give me all this bla bla in answer to the question why you did not vote Putin out when your still could. I think you have already given the answer: You were not interested in politics.

[..]

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives died
fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.


Cheers, Michiel

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Hello, Michiel!

Tuesday August 06 2024 09:18, you wrote to me:

Not having the money to pay for food for kids is a very good reason to
not have them in the first place. Nuclear power plant enigineers

You can't put children back where they came from of your countrie's economy just collapsed.

should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

We call it "social darwinism". If you don't adapt quickly enough, your children are destined for extinction.
Looks like such ideas are popular in NL too? ;)

We had the same problem with telecommunications. Not enought
experts.

But you had engineers for the nuclear power plants.

Yes, but they were very bad at telecommunications and economic reforms.

You probably just don't understand: it doesn't matter how people
vote. What matters is who is counting their votes.

That is not how it was in the early days of Putin when he still could
be voted out.

It was like this even since 1996 in many places. In 2000 it became worse, in 2004 it was too late to fix.
The first thing Putin did was take control of the courts. How are you supposed to do anything if the courts are biased?

Start military uprising? Really?

Fidonet is a democracy :)

Yeah right, keep on dreaming.

May be in NL it was different :) I don't know.

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the
ultimate ruler..

It was like.. 200 year ago?

Until about 150 years ago...

It was a long time ago, in a completely different era.

he king was unable to control most of the country. In the modern era, the Russian state has access to everything. all phone calls are recorded, all movements on the streets are tracked by facial recognition software, and all locations of people are analyzed and stored for future use (such as when the state needs to trace all your contacts from the last six months and locate those people).

The King had no such power.

So people in Netherlands 200 years ago were slaves??

For all intents and purposen: yes. What I am saying is that just like

But no. It was not possible to buy some Dutch guys and kill them for fun. They were not like slaves.
They were not completely free, but that's really a very much different situation.

And in Russia, 150 years ago, buying and selling people was a common practice. Not Africans, no. Russians.

So don't give me all this bla bla in answer to the question why you
did not vote Putin out when your still could. I think you have already given the answer: You were not interested in politics.

In 2000 I voted against Putin, but I'm still not sure how my vote was counted. You just don't understand: in many parts of Russia, we have never had even a single fair election since 1992. What you heard in the news was just wishful thinking by Western journalists who know very little about inner Russia.
If you have total control over the media and can get 90% "support" in some regions by manipulating the numbers, it's not that hard to win elections.

And as I mentioned before, Putin came up with the idea of external expansion many years after 2000. In 2000, he was seen as "strong but liberal" leader and later was even called a "friend of U.S. President Bush", not a Hitler or Ghaddafi.

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when
Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives
died fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in comparison to Belgium, for example:

5 days to surrender (Belgium resisted for 18, like 3 times more).
70% of jewish popluation killed (42% in Belgium)
25 000 volontiers in SS (15 000 in Belgium)

So the idea of fighting against opressing regime was not very popular in NL ;) We have the same problem in Russia now.

Best regards,
dp.

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Hello Dmitry,

On Wednesday August 07 2024 00:04, you wrote to me:

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when
Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives
died fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

That Mike Godwin alledgedly broke his own law does not invaildate it and it does not stop me from invoking it.

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin out when you still could" and all you come up with are diversions, fake arguments and subject chenges. It reminds me of the one who's name shall not be mentioned.
Regarding the answer to my question, all that I can deduct from your postings is that you were not intersted in politics...


EOT


Cheers, Michiel

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Hello, Michiel!

Wednesday August 07 2024 11:19, you wrote to me:

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler
couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

That Mike Godwin alledgedly broke his own law does not invaildate it
and it does not stop me from invoking it.

The problem is that you just don't like the comparison.

But it's not my problem to explain why Dutch people were very much against dying for their own freedom, although some of them were happy to die killing some Russians.

Maybe we were the same, waiting for the British and Americans to save us :)

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin
out when you still could" and all you come up with are diversions,

It was never a monent when we could "vote out" Putin, realistically.

fake arguments and subject chenges. It reminds me of the one who's

For example you've probabably never heard term "Electroral Sultanate".
We call such regions of Russia where elections were never fair. Not a single time.
How could you win there if your votes are always counted "the right way"?

And good luck running any political campaigns when you have almost zero access to federal media.

name shall not be mentioned. Regarding the answer to my question, all
that I can deduct from your postings is that you were not intersted in politics...

I voted against him in 2000, but yes, I was too busy trying to earn some money (with a salary of about $200) to go to the protests at that time. Back then, in 5001 (Kuzbass) it was possible to go straight to jail even before 2000 for any participation in mass protests.

But later, starting from 2006, I was brave enough to protest in Moscow (5020) even when it was very likely to result in a long jail term, being tortured in prison, and possibly ending your life without any medical aid.

So no, I don't think your ideas about why we've failed are good enough. Maybe it's because I remember that every time the Dutch guys need to be brave, they have something else to do, like watching TV in Srebrenica while angry Serbs are out there ready to kick some asses. Even got some medals for that :)

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
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Hello Michiel!

06 Aug 24 09:18, you wrote to Dmitry Protasoff:

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be interested
in politics because it is politicians that have the power to actually
do something about it. Nuclear power plant engineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

I read back some of your posts and I think they are detached from reality. I have experienced one party politics. I experienced totalitarian "choice". I experienced a police interrogation. And that was only Czechoslovakia and even the better times from this era. It is naive to think that there is a way out of this in a "democratic way".

Karel

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Hello Michiel,

[..]

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

MvdV> And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin out when
MvdV> you still could" and all you come up with are diversions, fake arguments
MvdV> and subject chenges.

In all fairness to Dmitry, it should be kept in mind that Putin
gained power through legal means, same as Hitler. Once in office,
Hitler did exactly what he had promised to the German people.
He was Germany's savior, as well as the savior for all Germanic
peoples. In that sense, Putin is no different than Hitler.

And you know what? Germans loved him. Over 90% of the German
population were members of the Nazi Party (National Socialists).
They loved Hitler, and what he promised to give (or return) to
them. After all, it was their Germany.

Does that make the German people "evil"? I think not.

How can you blame Russians who thought Putin would give them
what they wanted? Yeltsin named Putin as Prime Minister, and
then quit as president. Then Putin was elected president,
through legal means. A new constitution was written ... Putin
got rid of lesser parties (made them inconsequential), and
had his own party firmly in place to ensure his own place.

Does that make the Russian people "evil"? I think not.

If Russia is to change, it will do so in the same way it always
has - through revolution. That is the way the Russian bear does
things. When in a skiffle with one of her cubs, she does so
underneath a rug. This is what is happening today with Ukraine.

At some point, smaller bears challenge papa bear and only one
bear emerges. The only question remaining is where will papa bear
go if there is no place else for him to go? We know what happened
to the Czar and his family ...

MvdV> It reminds me of the one who's name shall not be mentioned.

Let me guess! Let me guess!

MvdV> Regarding the answer to my question, all that I can deduct from your
MvdV> postings is that you were not intersted in politics...

Politics is the art of interpersonal relationships.

That is how Hitler gained power, through legal means.
That is how Putin gained power, through legal means.
Not by making threats, but by giving people what they
want or most desire.

And what does the politician want in return? Not much.
Just a little love, and affection. And you know what that
means -

Once you give something, you cannot take it away.

For Life,
Lee

--
You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

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Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 08.08.2024 17:46

LL> That is how Hitler gained power, through legal means.
LL> That is how Putin gained power, through legal means.
LL> Not by making threats, but by giving people what they
LL> want or most desire.

If you compare Putin and Hitler you are really afraid, I see. ;-) And
now you are waiting how Putin will at any moment start conquering the
poor world. Be calm it is not correct. Remember - "It is all in your
head" (c) "Chicken running" cartoon. You scared yourselves, hypnotise yourselves and now you really believe in your wild fantasies, so much
that your new NATO allies Finns has started taking big twice often. War
in Ukraine has concrete reasons and Russia's claims has not appeared out
of nothing -- the West had just preferred to ignore them arrogantly for
8 years since 2014.

I don't defend this war, but it is absolutely clear for me that Putin is
not a single and first reason for what is happening in Ukraine now.
People who came to power in Kiev in 2014 had made nothing to prevent
violence and they provoked awful events also arrogantly thinking that
they have enough power to ignore Russia stance. There is no single side
to blame and it is clear. Who was better -- Zelensky or Putin when
staring this war -- it is not a simple question. As the question who is
more democratic one and which country is now more resemble a
concentration camp. ;-) They both share the guilt.

The Western military help to Ukraine is the same escalating thing as
Russia's help was to the Donbass rebels. You think exactly as Putin did
that a military help is the best way to stop military fighting and bring
peace to Donbass. You even escalate this war from the EU's fund of
peace. ;-) The result is the same, and in addition the conflict is
growing bigger and there is a danger of some accidents that can cause something dreadful.

The more weapon people get the more they want to fight until the enemy
is dead. Two countries are now fighting as two fighters who have their
nerves switched off -- i.e. they don't feel pain even if they see the
gushing blood.


PS:
2Protasov - I will not to dispute with you, I know you pretend that you
know all in this world and have an illusion that you can answer any
question. It is useless to talk with a person who divided the world in
black and white.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2024
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Hello Karel,

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be MV>interested

in politics because it is politicians that have the MV>power to actually do
something about it. Nuclear power plant MV>engineers should be smart enough
to figure that out for MV>themselves...

I read back some of your posts and I think they are detached from reality.

In a nutshell, politics is the act of interpersonal relationships.
But when that relationship is nonexistent, there is nothing the other
party can do.

That is why my great grandfather left Sicily. The dictator at the
time (the one before Mussolini) did whatever he wanted, whenever he
wanted, without anybody having the ability to object. Of course, it
took him a while, with 13 kids (11 of whom survived childbirth) to
tow to the USA. And back then, the only transportation available
was by boat. Good thing he was a cobbler as he never drove a car.
Had to walk to New Orleans from New York. That is a lot of shoes.

I have experienced one party politics.

So have I. Here in Louisiana. We had our very own dictator.
Huey P. Long. Really nice guy. Wanted to make every man a king.
Too bad his doctor shot him dead before he had a chance to make
it a reality.

I experienced totalitarian "choice".

We voted for Huey P. Long and accepted his rule with open arms.
After his doctor killed him (over a woman) we elected his brother
Earl. Who was then committed to a mental institution. Good thing
his girlfriend (a stripper) reminded him he was still governor
and could do whatever he wanted. So he fired his doctor and got
out. What a guy. Running the governor's office from an insane
asylum. No modern dictator can top that.

I experienced a police interrogation.

I had that very same experience. Dyslexic cop gave me a ticket
for speeding. And had the court date wrong. An all points bulletin
was issued for having missed the court date. Fortunately, I found
a solution. I gave a small donation to a candidate for mayor. He
easily won the election. The first thing he did in office was
fire the cop. Problem solved.

And that was only Czechoslovakia and even the better times from this era.

Louisiana has the best politicians that money can buy.
Trust me. I know.

It is naive to think that there is a way out of this in a "democratic way".

Money talks. People listen.

For Life,
Lee

--
GOP thinks banning guns won't elminate guns.
GOP thinks banning abortion will elininate abortions.

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